Interesting reflection today Mary. Bewildering times, as ever.
Today in the Catholic world it is the feast day of Saint Catherine of Siena, who famously said: ‘become who you are meant to be and you will set the world on fire’.
Not sure what St Catherine would have to say about ‘Come on baby light my fire’ being howled in the hallowed vaults of Bristol Cathedral, but being a Third Order Dominican, it might be something on the lines of: ‘Who is the baby you sing to? What will you do with such fire? Who is this rowdy ritual glorifying?
That has made me think. I went to Canterbury for Eucharist on Sunday and was so appalled at the HR-speak sermon that I very nearly got up in my pew and said something in protest. Canterbury did a disco thing too last year. I hated the whole idea. Durham had something similar going on last weekend. But you are right. Religion serves many purposes. I went to an Elim "get to know you" event. Loads of young women. All stressed that it was the social side that had brought them into the church. The comfort and solidarity of a crowd of fellow believers. None of them had heard of Maundy Thursday or the Stations of the Cross. We all need and take different things from faith. I want awe, majesty, a connection to the spiritual history of this country, not a coffee morning and some hippy dippy singing. But religion is a vast and complex thing that involves individual conscience, making sense of the infinity of the universe, building and sustaining community on earth, giving a society some moral coherence, keeping alive a cultural identity and much much more. if the Pentecostals can bring more people to God, good luck to them. I'll stick with the bells and smells and Latin chants and all the young fogey boys who are filling up Great St Barts.
I mean it as a term of endearment. I'm much more pro them than the Elim girls. They look like Oxford and Cambridge graduates who now work for the civil service or right wing policy groups. Under 30. Usually gorgeous pre Raphaelite girlfriends. And dressed sort of tweedy. Come to Barts and see for yourself. The place is so packed they are putting on extra services starting next month. Marcus Walker is single handedly saving Anglicanism IMHO
To answer your question: Elim is a Pentecostal church and thus is descended theologically from US Methodism which itself descended from Wesleyan and with a side helping of prosperity gospel. So the table is symbolic. They are not Anglo Catholic.
That must mean that the Church of England is Elim’s grandparent as John Wesley avowed he would live and die as a member of the Church of which he was an ordained priest.
It's not so much the singing and dancing aspect of a rave in a cathedral but for me the partnering with a vodka brand that feels off, and I say this as an atheist. I just feel that members of my family that are Christian would find this extremely jarring but apparently not The Church if they are financially compensated.
I believe that if one goes back to the 12th/13th century times, there was singing and dancing in churches. There is a monopodial labyrinth in Chartes cathedral which was danced [and has been in recent years]. Eventually it all got stamped on by the Papal authorities.
Like most Protestants, Pentecostals would see communion as symbolic.
I’d push back a bit on your point that the Pentecostals are using cathedral-disco energy; there’s a huge difference. This is not a bait-and-switch situation (lure you in with vodka and raves, send you out with Jesus) and more of them just being honest.
They’re excited about the difference Jesus has made in their lives and they express that in lots of different ways. I’ve been involved in these kinds of churches my whole life and what I would say is whilst we (in the low church) lack the reverence and the order of the High church, we don’t lack the love for Jesus. It’s more of an Acts 4:13 thing. We’re ordinary uneducated folks who have met with Jesus.
I am very torn about this piece. I don't like the idea of a vodka-sponsored rave in a cathedral, yet as the vicar of a grade-1 listed church I am all too aware of the amount of money you have to raise to keep the show on the road. In our case it's £2500 a week. For a cathedral it will be much more. I don't think it's right to discuss this as if it were an act of worship because it's clearly a way of paying the bills. Having said that I wouldn't want it in my own church, even if fixed pews allowed it.
I also think that the distinction between charismatic and formal worship is to some extent a false one, perhaps akin to the (in my view) false dichotomy between introverted and extroverted personality types. The Holy Spirit is active in any worship that is whole-hearted, reverent, Christ-centred and involving body and soul. The person sitting with unbidden tears in the back pew, or with unexpectedly lifted heart as they sing a hymn, or who murmurs 'thank you' as they receive the sacrament -- those are charismatic experiences just as much as speaking in tongues or raising your arms in worship.
It's hard to get away from the 'if everyone in the church did the thing I like, everyone else would come to church' fallacy. For myself, I have to hope that reverent worship, care with and commitment to the sacraments, serious preaching and determination to grow in devotion and holiness will be enough, and that God will do the rest.
In an age so hostile to genuine connection, I wouldn’t blame any believer trying to find a sense of genuine Christian communion. My own eyes tell me what a lot of churches have lost when I look around the stands at a footie match. Sure, worship isn’t entertainment but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t seek to express the longing burning inside it.
Interesting reflection today Mary. Bewildering times, as ever.
Today in the Catholic world it is the feast day of Saint Catherine of Siena, who famously said: ‘become who you are meant to be and you will set the world on fire’.
Not sure what St Catherine would have to say about ‘Come on baby light my fire’ being howled in the hallowed vaults of Bristol Cathedral, but being a Third Order Dominican, it might be something on the lines of: ‘Who is the baby you sing to? What will you do with such fire? Who is this rowdy ritual glorifying?
That has made me think. I went to Canterbury for Eucharist on Sunday and was so appalled at the HR-speak sermon that I very nearly got up in my pew and said something in protest. Canterbury did a disco thing too last year. I hated the whole idea. Durham had something similar going on last weekend. But you are right. Religion serves many purposes. I went to an Elim "get to know you" event. Loads of young women. All stressed that it was the social side that had brought them into the church. The comfort and solidarity of a crowd of fellow believers. None of them had heard of Maundy Thursday or the Stations of the Cross. We all need and take different things from faith. I want awe, majesty, a connection to the spiritual history of this country, not a coffee morning and some hippy dippy singing. But religion is a vast and complex thing that involves individual conscience, making sense of the infinity of the universe, building and sustaining community on earth, giving a society some moral coherence, keeping alive a cultural identity and much much more. if the Pentecostals can bring more people to God, good luck to them. I'll stick with the bells and smells and Latin chants and all the young fogey boys who are filling up Great St Barts.
What, may I ask, is a young fogey boy?
I mean it as a term of endearment. I'm much more pro them than the Elim girls. They look like Oxford and Cambridge graduates who now work for the civil service or right wing policy groups. Under 30. Usually gorgeous pre Raphaelite girlfriends. And dressed sort of tweedy. Come to Barts and see for yourself. The place is so packed they are putting on extra services starting next month. Marcus Walker is single handedly saving Anglicanism IMHO
To answer your question: Elim is a Pentecostal church and thus is descended theologically from US Methodism which itself descended from Wesleyan and with a side helping of prosperity gospel. So the table is symbolic. They are not Anglo Catholic.
That must mean that the Church of England is Elim’s grandparent as John Wesley avowed he would live and die as a member of the Church of which he was an ordained priest.
It's not so much the singing and dancing aspect of a rave in a cathedral but for me the partnering with a vodka brand that feels off, and I say this as an atheist. I just feel that members of my family that are Christian would find this extremely jarring but apparently not The Church if they are financially compensated.
I believe that if one goes back to the 12th/13th century times, there was singing and dancing in churches. There is a monopodial labyrinth in Chartes cathedral which was danced [and has been in recent years]. Eventually it all got stamped on by the Papal authorities.
Like most Protestants, Pentecostals would see communion as symbolic.
I’d push back a bit on your point that the Pentecostals are using cathedral-disco energy; there’s a huge difference. This is not a bait-and-switch situation (lure you in with vodka and raves, send you out with Jesus) and more of them just being honest.
They’re excited about the difference Jesus has made in their lives and they express that in lots of different ways. I’ve been involved in these kinds of churches my whole life and what I would say is whilst we (in the low church) lack the reverence and the order of the High church, we don’t lack the love for Jesus. It’s more of an Acts 4:13 thing. We’re ordinary uneducated folks who have met with Jesus.
I am very torn about this piece. I don't like the idea of a vodka-sponsored rave in a cathedral, yet as the vicar of a grade-1 listed church I am all too aware of the amount of money you have to raise to keep the show on the road. In our case it's £2500 a week. For a cathedral it will be much more. I don't think it's right to discuss this as if it were an act of worship because it's clearly a way of paying the bills. Having said that I wouldn't want it in my own church, even if fixed pews allowed it.
I also think that the distinction between charismatic and formal worship is to some extent a false one, perhaps akin to the (in my view) false dichotomy between introverted and extroverted personality types. The Holy Spirit is active in any worship that is whole-hearted, reverent, Christ-centred and involving body and soul. The person sitting with unbidden tears in the back pew, or with unexpectedly lifted heart as they sing a hymn, or who murmurs 'thank you' as they receive the sacrament -- those are charismatic experiences just as much as speaking in tongues or raising your arms in worship.
It's hard to get away from the 'if everyone in the church did the thing I like, everyone else would come to church' fallacy. For myself, I have to hope that reverent worship, care with and commitment to the sacraments, serious preaching and determination to grow in devotion and holiness will be enough, and that God will do the rest.
In an age so hostile to genuine connection, I wouldn’t blame any believer trying to find a sense of genuine Christian communion. My own eyes tell me what a lot of churches have lost when I look around the stands at a footie match. Sure, worship isn’t entertainment but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t seek to express the longing burning inside it.