Perhaps the most life-saving idea I garnered for life as a mum, from training as a psychotherapist, was coined by the great child psychologist Donald Winnicott: the phrase “good-enough mother”. In Winnicott’s view, mothers don’t need to be perfect or all-enveloping - in fact it can be better if we’re not quite perfect!
Growing up is about gradually moving from a state of total dependence as a baby, toward adult autonomy; part of that, inevitably, is about our earliest caregivers gradually letting us go, as it becomes appropriate to do so. I remember moments of sadness when my own baby daughter became able to do things for herself that previously I’d done for her, and struggling sometimes to step back and let her grow. I don’t think mothers ever stop worrying that they’re doing it wrong, somehow or other. There is so much pressure on mothers now to be all-sacrificing and perfect in every way; so I’ve always found comforting the idea that it’s okay to be a ‘good-enough mother’. That is, a mother who, to the best of her ability, tries both to nurture and also - when appropriate - to let go, and to accept that doing this is likely to involve some conflict, and some error. And that when there is conflict or disappointment, repairing these ruptures is part of what helps to shape a child’s sense of themselves as a separate person.
At least I hope this is right. In the same context, a theme I’ve returned to a few times recently those ways mothering can go off the rails not through lack of nurture and caring, but its excess. In response to discussion of this theme in last year’s essay Devour Me, Mummy, at this Substack, plus the Devouring Mother chapter in Feminism Against Progress, I heard from Dr Brooke Laufer, a clinical psychologist practising in Illinois, USA with a clinical interest in the same theme. Brooke specialises in perinatal psychosis, and is working on a book exploring the Devouring Mother archetype, via cases of maternal infanticide. We recently connected for the conversation shared here.
Brooke reports observing a common phenomenon in her own clinical practice, especially when working with parents and distressed teens: a kind of everyday form of Devouring Mother that she calls “the too-good mother”. That is, a kind of preoccupied mothering where, unlike Winnicott’s “good-enough mother”, the mother seeks compulsively to avoid subjecting her child to any experience of conflict, error, rupture or repair, and instead endeavours keep him or her indefinitely enveloped in a kind of figurative womb.
This is broadly the same phenomenon described recently by Abigail Shrier in her latest book, Bad Therapy, which explores institutional forms of the too-good mother, for example in schools and therapeutic culture. Brooke and I discussed Shrier’s work, and the too-good mother archetype: why is this happening now? And how can we address it? Importantly, how do we even talk about this, without it just becoming another stick to beat mothers with?
Sharing audio is an experiment for me and this is not very polished - please bear with me! But Brooke is such a warm and thoughtful analyst of the “too-good mother” I think you’ll enjoy hearing from her.
You can find out more about Brooke at her website here.
Her book is published on 2 July.
…I woke up yesterday morning thinking about my Mother and wrote this poem:
Dear Mum
Thank you for letting a stranger into your body.
For we were strangers,
You and I.
And I did not know you,
Nor you, me.
What were your thoughts
When I entered this World through you?
Alien to your Heart and Soul
But not your Flesh.
You were too good a Mother
To love me just because I was Yours.
Yet you fed me
And I am here now because of you.
……..And you prayed to St Jude…
Patron Saint of hopeless cases.
Never once letting me know that he was your consolation.
What a Mother!
I Thank You!
And despite, or maybe because…..
We remained together ‘till the end.
Your end,
For Here,
For Now.
And then…..
At last ……I saw You!
I saw who you are.
Who you always have been.
How your strange love
And our strangeness
Was perfect.
Being a…..part of you
I found the missing part of me.
Praying to St Jude! Lovely! I do pray to my children's Confirmation saints on their behalf though. Yes - an unborn baby is a stranger - but a welcome stranger, one hopes.
The tyrannical patriarchy is dead. Welcome to the tyrannical matriarchy.
Our feminized Western society has spent the last 20 or 30 years doing it's best to eradicate any masculine traits (sink or swim anyone?) and now wonders why there's no balance. I love women and femininity, but too much of anything brings out the crazy.
What masculine traits have been eradicated?
Which one is preferable to you, and why?
Assuming you are not trolling ..... neither is preferable. There can be no feminine without the masculine, and vice versa. Just as we cannot have a functioning courtroom with only a prosecution and no defense, we cannot have a functioning society with only the patriarchy or only the matriarchy. IMO, our ancestors learned over time that excesses of masculinity (physical agression, hyper competitiveness, low empathy, ..) are dangerous to social order and they built safeguards (laws, mores) against it. This has made our civilization safer and less corrupt than at any point in history and safe enough for women to compete with men. I believe that we are now in an overcorrection. Society recognizes and criticizes toxic masculinity. But it's mysogynistic to mention toxic femininity (hyper empathy, Infantilizing, feelings > reason, passive forms of aggression). We are seriously out of balance today. All the little lies are adding up. Men and women are not interchangeable. Women do in fact need men, and vice versa. We need the masculine and the feminine. It is a healthy tension when we appreciate and accept that there will always be some situations where a more masculine perspective is required and some situations where a more feminine is needed.
I would also like to eliminate the words 'patriarchy' and 'matriarchy' because they are both so loaded with negative meanings. As you say, let's recognise that men and women are not interchangeable, that both have different roles as parents - and that children need both.
That is a great answer. Thank you.
The image used at the top of the essay is by visionary artist, mother and co-founder of Hedgespoken Press, Rima Staines. www.rimastaines.com
Lovely speaking with you Mary! Turned out well for an experiment with audio :)
It's a practical, immanent problem generated by a broad scale metaphysical problem. There is much to say about mothering but the part that is not said, or rarely mentioned, is the troublesome big-picture part. Do we create our children, rather than receive them (or elect not to receive them) from wherever it is that children come? If the answer is yes, you create them, just as you allegedly create everything about your own life, then we are on the hook if we find ourselves "with child" and fail to abort the project. None of us have the excuse any more of claiming that the child just showed up and we're doing the best we can to deal with a difficult situation that has shackled our hearts and minds and energy. We DID THIS. We CHOSE. We have become accountable for assenting to manage a project the mission of which we cannot define. Their happiness? Their social utility? Our happiness and fulfillment? Their skill and talent as an NBA player? Admission to Harvard? Their capacity to tolerate the dissonance between human social reality and the abstractions of whatever current theory of human perfection happens to be running amok? I am thoroughly sympathetic toward those young people who are finding reasons not to marry and raise children. In a backhanded way they are acknowledging that this is all basically God's work, not our own; we are mere supporting actors, if not mere witnesses to our children's growth and development. They see the truth: we ought not get too excited about the prospect of being held accountable--or holding ourselves accountable--for the "outcomes" of God's sense of humor: using the uncontrollability of our children's lives to teach us humility, and also to teach us, if we are lucky, not to wear the outcome of the reality of it all as humiliation. A child illuminates all that is best about being alive, making it impossible to avoid the sting of the realization that we all fall short, and a lot of the time. Best to avoid parenting if you think you're going to get stuck between the awareness of your need for forgiveness and your willingness to accept such.
'Best to avoid parenting if you think...' I suggest that sometimes we overthink the question of having children. Why not simply go ahead and hope to have children - as our forefather did? And then trust to maternal (and paternal) instincts developing? Before my first child was born I recall saying to my husband, 'I don't know him. I don't know if I will love him.' But I grew to do so.
As to forgiveness: well, we will all make mistakes as parents, for which we will need to ask forgiveness of our children. And our children in their turn will need to ask forgiveness of us (because they generally take us for granted for many years.)
We don't create our children: they come with their own personalities and some of the traits that they inherit from us. We have to civilise them. I must have said 'Say 'please may I borrow?' and not grab that toy' about a million times (and several other mantras in the bargain.)
Marriage and parenthood are great schools for learning unselfishness.
Thanks for your response. With respect, I did not intend to imply that I think that parents need to seek forgiveness from their children, excepting, I suppose, instances of outright abuse or willful neglect. In fact I think it's normally a rather bad idea, and especially for the children. My mind was going in an entirely different direction in the matter of "forgiveness"; perhaps I did not make my point clearly enough.
In the mid and late 80s, when I was having and raising children. I read Good-Enough Mothering that was recommended in a Parenting magazine I read at the pediatrician. As a result, I was the lone parent at Little League wondering WTG a Participation Trophy was and watched without a care as my kids tossed theirs in the closest rubbish bin. I also knew that I had to teach my kids to lose and learn to deal with it well, rather than the melt-downs I regularly witnessed everywhere but their tae kwon do competitions. Their father and I were also athletic and very competitive, so they learned to deal with it by watching how we dealt with loss. Dealing with hectoring mothers who insisted their child had won something they hadn't was a good contrast they didn't understand until they had their own children.
My sister, mother of three, says something that I consider essential for any parent: "If I had known better, I would have done better." It's been a lifesaver for me, as I tend to beat the crap out of myself for not having done better as a father.
We are always wise long after the event. Looking back as a mother and now grandmother, I do wish I had done some things differently - but at the time I could not have done them.
The only time you mention the man is as a support when the woman wants more me time. Your solutions are all fully feminine. Your approach is to be a better mother by being more selfish. Maybe let go of some control and incorporate masculinity into the approach.
Agreed. Moms do way too much. They need to relinquish a good chunck of child-care and everything that goes with it (house chores, appointment making/keeping, scheduling, chauvering, meal-planning, etc) to dads. In cases of divorce I always advise women to let their ex-husbands have majority custody. That way they will get to be the "fun parent" that has the kids every other weekend and one night per week. Divorced fathers have enjoyed that position for decades, while moms continued with the vast majority of the child-care responsibilities post divorce. Men have been complaining lately about not being able to see their kids enough and women complain about being overworked and exhausted. Full custody to dads while moms get visitation rights is the way to go. Win/win for everybody.
Your solution sounds good on paper but I think it goes against the maternal instincts of most mothers. I also think way too many people divorce because 'they are not getting on and have grown tired of each other.' That reason is very unsatisfactory. My view is that you must learn to get along - for the sake of the children if for no other reason. (I am not thinking of cases of actual abuse; only of couples who have the normal dose of selfishness but who need to learn to walk that extra mile.)
"Your solution sounds good on paper but I think it goes against the maternal instincts of most mothers. "
Right. But some are "giving dads what they ask for" and these dads are on social media wanting to go back to "I barely ever see my kids". No matter what the Manosphere says, most divorced dads don't really want even 50/50 shared custody, forget about full custody. They simply want to be the "fun weekend parent" with mere "visitation rights" that only has the kids every 2nd weekend and 1 night per week, at most.
If you peruse the "Decenter Men" Youtubes and Tiktoks, women are now advising other women to let the dads have full or 50/50 custody, just so women finally get a break. When that happens the men are unprepared for what they've signed up for and quickly become overwhelmed with all the things expected of a full-time, hands-on parent. Oh well. Men asked for it, so they will get it.
I actually think 50/50 custody is not good for the children (unless you are on very good terms with your ex and live down the road from her/him.) Divorce or separation is very destabilising for children as it is. They need a base, a regular home. Thus, generally speaking, it is probably best for most children's emotional welfare for their 'base' to be with their mother and to see the father often, at times arranged by mutual agreement (rather than through the courts, for obvious reasons.) The children's welfare should come before the diktats of social media or the possibly selfish wishes of the parents.
I agree with you Francis!
Why do you think having the mother as a base is better than having the father?
Because mothers on the whole nurture in a way more suited to younger children (let's agree that children 12 and over should be allowed a voice in choosing which parent they prefer to live with, all things being equal.) Speaking generally, mothers remember to brush hair, brush teeth, to check TV programs that might be unsuitable, to make sure that mealtimes are regular and are not just take-aways, to make sure clothes are clean and suitable, to filter out bad friends, to remember dentist appointments, to notice if new shoes are needed and so on. And this list does not begin to describe the maternal 'genius' - or instinct - for creating a secure 'nest' for her young.
Now don't reply by saying fathers can do all these things just as well or better. There are exceptional fathers. I am talking about the 'average' mother and the 'average' Dad. They have different gifts - as I have said on this and other threads till I am blue in the face. What am I left with? A blue face.
" mothers remember to brush hair, brush teeth, to check TV programs that might be unsuitable, to make sure that mealtimes are regular and are not just take-aways, to make sure clothes are clean and suitable, to filter out bad friends, to remember dentist appointments, to notice if new shoes are needed and so on. "
--- This is all just "adulting". Are you suggesting men are children? Part of moms' complaints is that they are overworked precisely because these adulting tasks fall more on their laps than dads'.
"Now don't reply by saying fathers can do all these things just as well or better. There are exceptional fathers."
--- None of that is particularly "exceptional". It's just basic adulting and basic parenting.
"I am talking about the 'average' mother and the 'average' Dad. They have different gifts "
--- In this regard I don't think so. I think what happens is dads see their wives doing all this and figure then they don't have to. Sometimes more extreme husbands/fathers pretend they don't know how too. That's called "weaponized incompetence" and women are catching on. Youtube is blowing up with how to combat it right now.
I think we are speaking different languages. You are using the language of modernity: 'adulting'; 'weaponised incompetence'; Youtube. I am using the language of the Christian faith: that men and women are created by God to be equal yet different; that there is a 'masculine genius' and a 'feminine genius'; that both sexes have strengths and weaknesses (because we are human and we sin); that children, if married couples are privileged to have them, are a gift from God, not a right or a commodity; that the modern sex wars are a device invented by our ancient Enemy (see The Screwtape Letters). Do you see the problem?
Are you a USA citizen?
No! I am a Celt by ancestry, but I live in a small village in the County of Buckinghamshire in the UK. Are you an American?
I think it is also worth saying that most parents come with some psychological baggage which they bring into the parental role, perhaps unconsciously. I was the child of a broken home; some baggage there. When I had my own children I tried to do everything the opposite of the way I had been brought up. That meant some over-compensation in giving my children attention. I wasn't being 'too good'; I was just reacting to my own past and hoping my methods would work out. But I also had my limits. The children remember me saying on occasion, as they were arguing and playing and shouting around me, 'Oh do be quiet and let me read my book in peace!'
That's what will save you, more femininity, more compassion, more introspection. Let's turn inward more. How about just getting out and doing productive shit and feeling like you accomplished something because you did.
Thank you for exploring this topic. I felt the same when I was introduced to the Good Enough Mother after I had my first child over 20 years ago. What a relief to find out that the varying states of attunement, miss-attunement/repair AND miss-attunement without repair were not only inevitable but supported developing resilience. I work with families and I am currently reading this book and recommending it - The Power of Discord: Why the Ups and Downs of Relationships Are the Secret to Building Intimacy, Resilience, and Trust. - This growing relationship we have with our children - I want the same for all parents. Our children truly are our best opportunity to have the best relationships in this life if we can manage the relentless dance of holding on and letting go. My children both love to travel. My daughter is doing her semester abroad in London. She shared her location with us because as she put it - "This seems smart especially when I am traveling alone." But the girl knows her mother and had to add - "Mom, this does not give you license to stalk me." I've done pretty well. But I failed this morning as I watched her dot/photo make her way to the Amsterdam airport. Good enough!
Parents who send their children to boarding schools say that one of the advantages is that 'It teaches them independence and to stand on their own feet.' My children were all state-educated and lived at home all year throughout the whole of their growing up. I felt vindicated when our second son, aged 18, flew off to Japan in his gap year (to learn the language as he planned to study Japanese at university) with barely a backward glance.
Not sure the two women speaking here are as aware of what has made them feel the way they do as they need to be if they are to make so many declarative statements.
For example, childhood family dynamics are the foundation to a lot of the beliefs and preferences we adopt as parents.
I couldn't help thinking of Kellie Jay Keen during this discussion.
Kellie Jay takes no prisoners, is definitely no door mat and yet being at home with the kids appears to have created a very fulfilling life for her.
Had her father been abusive, or had her mother abandoned her, might she too have felt the need to assert her separateness more?
I get the impression Kellie Jay definitely has her boundaries, she loves her kids, but she is as concerned about mother's, and husband's as she is about children in her struggle with the trans cult.
I agree, I found the discussion rather negative. Actually I think children do far better with their mothers being at home and available to them until at least 5 and very often until 11/12 as was normal in the UK until the 80’s. The mental health crisis we see now in those born in the 90’s and 00’s could in my opinion be caused by mothers not being around as well as devastating levels of family breakdown since the 80’s. Deciding to be mostly available to your children by being a stay at home mother until school age or even secondary school age doesn’t necessarily equate to being a helicopter mother or a snowplough mother. It is unfortunate that in the modern world rampant capitalism makes us all cogs in the machine. Mammon devours our children by making it hard or impossible for mothers to refuse paid employment and focus on family instead. It all fractures communities leading to isolation of mothers who do stay home.
I also found co-sleeping until my children grew out of it a deeply satisfying experience and some of my happiest memories from their early years are around that, of course I didn’t have to go to work the next day.
In China the too good mother is known as the Tiger mother. Xi jumping has expressed alarm that China's young men are big issues and sees this as a threat to national security.
The way kids are leaving to iconoclasm in the West, displaying a deep disgust with their own society, I think he may be onto something
...well, that's because the concept of the ever duelling forces of Yin and Yang, remain a central feature of Chinese culture and philosophy. And the dominance of Yin, the female force of chaos, which is so apparent in the West, is also bleeding into the East through technology. China at least has the capacity to nurture a local rebalancing. Not so sure the West can manage that without the catalyst of catastrophe.
Yes, our society is in chaos. But China is a tightly controlled surveillance society where its citizens don't vote and its president is for life. Living in the west I think I still prefer our society.
The West could do with some tiger moms.
Yes. The original famous Tiger Mom in the US got both her daughters to become accomplished musicians and go to Harvard (or Yale?) That's discipline for you!
Tiger Moms are why Asians are ahead.
This is a worthy topic. However I feel that using terminology like “too good” or “perfect” isn’t helpful because it doesn’t correctly describe the issue; it convolutes excess and extreme with goodness and perfection. As we know from Goldilocks, too much (or too little) of anything can never be thought of as good or perfect; when taking measure, too much or too little is actually the definition of imperfect. So the problem you are attempting to describe would more accurately be called imprudent or excessive mothering. Goodness and perfection are virtues worth striving toward - however unattainable - but we need to understand them as actions and principles operating within their proper time and place. To everything there is a season.
I wonder if the author’s family is related to my family “Leifer”. Does she have and Hasidic Jewish roots?
I am so grateful for this conversation. Thank you.
I love this interview so much. It was wonderful to hear Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Donald Winnicott, and Melanie Klein discussed! Pinkola Estes' audiobooks got me through the 2020 Covid lockdowns. (I also really enjoyed your book, Mary).
I recently published a couple of essays on my (new-ish) substack that overlap with a lot of this talk about the too-good mother (the "gentle" parent?) and how it could be in part compensation for absence due to having to work (or choosing to), as well as a product of high conscientiousness, a tendency to follow-the-rules, listen to experts, go "by the book". One of the core arguments I make is that pushing cognitive developmental tasks on a child too young disrupts brain development and leads to long-term problems, as cognitive tasks like reading and basic math are left hemisphere dominant tasks, and the right hemisphere is dominant and rapidly developing until about age 3 or 4. It seems this is common among "too-good" mothers, who measure the quality of their parenting by their kids' achievements ... which also contributes to mental illness, if the child assumes the parents' love is conditional on performance.
If you and your readers are interested ... these are longer reads, heavily researched and citation-dense.
Examining why so many former "gifted" kids are coming out as transgender and/or getting diagnosed with autism/ADHD, from a lens of brain development:
https://thecassandracomplex.substack.com/p/the-drama-of-the-gifted-children
How the dark history of parenting books has led Western parents to neglect their children's right hemispheres for generations:
https://thecassandracomplex.substack.com/p/the-dangers-of-reading-too-much-part-df8
Regarding Abigail Shrier, I just finished her book and am working on a post about it, but I think she's only partially right. "Bad therapy" and "gentle" parenting is contributing to poorer mental health, but I don't think it's the main cause. A lot has changed since WWII, in the culture, in the environment, in the food, the influence of Big Pharma etc ... I think parents might be raising the most poisoned generation of children ever.
...as do I, although I did live China adjacent, (Hong Kong) for many years.
"Growing up is about gradually moving from a state of total dependence as a baby, toward adult autonomy; part of that, inevitably, is about our earliest caregivers gradually letting us go, as it becomes appropriate to do so. "
--- What do you make of traditional religions and their "daughter goes from father's home and guardianship straith to husband's home and guardianship" paradigm? Most religious people in the west don't follow this anymore but as Islam is "having a moment" with Manosphere Muslim influencers blowing up online, this rhetoric is making a comeback. And you've got non-muslim manosphere agreeing with it.